Everyone of a certain age who reads this has some kind of starting point somewhere, a few months in his or her life that determined the development of musical taste and perspective on the cultural phenomenon of “Extreme Metal”. Mine consisted of digging through mailing and distribution lists in search of bands with cool names or cassette tapes with attractive titles – remember, this was well before the stream-all-you-can-handle era when the internet still consisted of dialing in via an expensive modem. In The Netherlands, my world consisted mainly of Black Abyss Productions, Satan’s Millennium Records and Heidens Hart Records. The latter still exists today some 25 years later and still my life consists of checking that distro weekly. In that same quarter century, I have always kept in touch with the owner, albeit intermittently, so it made sense to celebrate that anniversary with a Q&A with driving force Arjan…
Hi Arjan, you have the honour of being the first label owner to be interviewed here, so I would like to give you a very warm welcome to our pages. Let’s dive into the world of Heidens Hart, but first just the present: this year was exceptionally busy with lots of (vinyl) releases. What can we expect from Heidens Hart in 2024?
Hi F., thanks for your interest and this opportunity. Yes as you said it, 2023 was exceptionally busy. I ticked off a lot from the “upcoming”-list so 2024 should see a bit less releases. In short, the biggest projects will be new Cultus, represses as well as new stuff from Pest and a heavy touring schedule.
Let’s plunge into the depths then, the past especially. The label was founded by you around 2001 and your first release was the ‘De Zwaarden Spreken’ demo by your own band, Cultus. Was it mainly to be able to put a label name on your own work or did you already have a strong vision of what you wanted to do with Heidens Hart from the start?
Theoretically the label was founded a few years before, as a distro. I wanted to get some kind of foundation and have a name at least out there for a few years, while I was working on the first Cultus demo, which was intended to be my first release on the label. So I started by buying some stuff wholesale and even completely taking over two or three little distros that quit. I don’t remember the exact year but it must have been somewhere around 1997 or 1998. There wasn’t much of a vision; just focus on that first release, making music and building a cool distro.
When I placed my first orders with you at the beginning of the 00’s, there were many more great, smaller, underground (tape) labels, most of which have since disbanded. I well remember the mailing lists of the Dutch distros like Satan’s Millennium Records or Black Abyss Productions as well as those of the many Eastern European labels, I always looked forward to them and often chose new items based on a band name or the sometimes attached references. Overall, how do you look back on the Black Metal scene of those late 90’s and early 00’s?
Not much different than how I look to the scene nowadays. It’s too easy to say the usual that things in the past were better and nowadays it’s all shit. At least for me, this is not the case. I had and have my own circle of bands, friends, contacts. When looking back you are not so much looking back to an absolute period in history, but more a relative period in your own past, in my opinion. Most people are more enthusiastic and expressive during their teenage years – so was I and so were most people of my age at the time. More rebellious and spontaneous.
If we make it a bit more specific then, running a label back then, possibly from your bedroom in your parents’ house, will also be quite different from how you do it now, almost a quarter of a century later. Leaving aside those practical issues around the availability of the internet, including its joys and burdens, do you see big differences in mentality and intensity with which it is experienced?
The biggest difference is what every label will tell you: free available music everywhere. As I always said, in the past you had to buy music to check it out. Or at least put in the effort to dub and trade tapes and wait weeks for it to arrive. An original or convincing cover, unique lyrics, atmospheric photos, etc, those were all reasons to buy something and then listen to it at home while browsing through the booklet, staring at the artwork, studying the lyrics. At best, you could get a x-th generation copy through tape trading. But the real thing was always most impressive. I remember seeing a hand numbered CD at some stand for the first time. I could hardly believe it, “are they really going through all the trouble to number the entire run of 2000 CDs all by hand?”. Needless to say I bought it, just because of that.
Nowadays people will make a note of the name, not buy it, check it on YouTube and then maybe buy one in ten of noted titles. It’s too bad because there are still a lot of people and bands who still put that same kind of dedication into their stuff, but it gets ignored because people will give it three seconds in the background and then it’s on to the next. Well written music usually takes either full attention and/or multiple listens. People simply don’t want to, or don’t have the time to listen to something just to decide if they like it. It seems that has changed. Though it may be an age-thing too. If by now you are 40 or 50, you basically have seen and heard it all. I can imagine discovering new bands is not a priority for a lot of people who have been listening to metal to 30 years, whereas among the young people who are discovering the genre now, there surely will be plenty of people who still are still impressed by good lyrics or a captivating layout enough to buy it. So what I mean is, it’s not really a question of difference in mentality in the 90s versus the 2020s, but more a difference between people in their teenage years versus approaching their 50s. We are the grumpy old guys now, who may have lost a lot of interest in new music, but the young fans are now the rebellious and spontaneous ones, who have this mentality in which one can recognize themselves from 20 years ago.
I just mentioned it briefly, slowly Heidens Hart is growing towards its 25th anniversary and many of those fellow labels you used to exchange your releases with (probably in the nice and old school way of supplying master+covers) have ceased to exist. What do you think is the main thing that has allowed you to hold on through all the storms of time?
There still are some labels from those times who are still active, and sometimes I only now get in touch more closely with people I know from back then. So it’s like, “we used to trade like 20 years ago, how are you?”.
For me one of the most important things is to work WITH my bands, and not against them. I try to think and do what I would want an underground label to do for my band. I think a lot of labels are using bands to catch a ride on a hype, whereas I see myself as a more traditional record label where I’m actively promoting bands, working with them for a longer term.
I live extremely minimalistic and in a cheap part of the country. I also have the benefit of living on the border so I can pick the best of both worlds. My first couple of releases were indeed distributed as master + covers, like almost every tape release at the time. The label has been self-sufficient since very early, because I didn’t take a loan to start with 10 big releases. I invested some of my own money into buying the small stock of those mentioned little mailorders who wanted to quit, so I just bought their entire stock. But we are talking maybe 100 or 200 guilders (50 to 100 euro) for a couple of boxes, plus the costs of 100 xeroxed sheets and some blank tapes, so that’s nothing. Everyone now and then, you hear about people starting a label by taking a loan for 10.000 euro, buying a van, releasing 5 vinyl titles out of nowhere and announcing their plans for world domination. It’s doomed to fail because the first couple of years you are only trying to make money to pay back others. Anyway, that’s just how I see it – whatever works for them. Growth has to come naturally. You can’t invest thousands of euro in hoping that something will catch on.
Anyway, that financial part is just one of the reasons that I think I was able to thrive for 25 years. I run the label with a down-to-earth mentality. I never had to twist myself in strange bends to conform with contradictive bullshit, follow uninteresting trends by fake people, nor occupy myself with cheap political gimmicks. I’m not part of any scandals, I send all my orders and not rip off anyone, I am not a public figure and don’t want to be one. There are no pre-order schemes and no bootlegs to gossip about. No online discussions or daily spam. In fact, it sounds like my label is rather boring because there are no scandals to report on, heh. I work long and hard because in The Netherlands we say: “just act normal, it’s crazy enough already”. And that’s perfectly fine.
I think one thing that sets me aside from other labels is that I’m not afraid to distribute older titles from 5 or 25 years ago. A lot in the scene is dependent on the new hype, the new band by members X, Y and Z, the new this and that. There are plenty of old albums which I think haven’t reached enough people yet and I like to work on spreading those too. I buy old mailorder titles and back catalogues occasionally, provided the items are still mint of course. I don’t sell second hand stuff, it has to be new old stock obviously. And I repress or reissue older titles myself too. I’m easily bored by new bands where it is so obvious that it’s conformist crap that is made to sell, so that may be the reason why I am always interested in old and unknowns bands too. I still release tapes as master + covers nowadays by the way. The latest one is Burning Winds from the US.
With Heidens Hart, you have always had a supportive eye for our native Black Metal scene, but even looking beyond that, something of a common thread could be discerned in your choice of bands. How would you characterize this yourself?
This is something that I’m wondering about myself. I started with a focus on purely pagan black metal, but over the years it’s gotten a bit wider. Both ideologically and musically. When I grew up with this music, I was drawn to and interested in the pagan history of the country and of Europa – maybe because I was brought up christian. And when you’re young and enthusiastic, you focus on a pretty small and specific subject and style. You put your attention in small details and learn and study all about it. I listen to a whole wide range of music genres now – they all interest me. Still I think there is a kind of common thread in my releases, even though it may not be obvious at first. I still release a lot of pagan-themed bands, but not exclusively. My music taste has grown and I guess, so has my label catalogue.
Despite having always supported many Dutch bands, it took quite a long time before you were really taken seriously as a label by the always critical Dutch Black Metal scene. I remember some scathing remarks towards Heidens Hart on various Dutch forums. As long as I know you, you never really cared very much about that. Fortunately, public opinion has changed considerably in recent years and Heidens Hart is now seen as one of the flag bearers of the Dutch Black Metal scene. Still, did it never bother you a bit?
Flag bearer sounds like a huge honour, but if you say so. I’m just happy to be a go-to mailorder for so many Dutch underground maniacs now. I hardly receive any criticism or backlash personally, but I’m not unreachable – anyone can contact me about everything, so please do. I make errors and acknowledge and fix them when I did. But if you don’t like me for who I am, that’s perfectly ok, I don’t mind.
It’s indeed safe to say I never cared about anonymous and unfounded internet trolling. Those were the days when internet was upcoming and as I wrote before, I don’t take part in with online discussions and gossip. I never heard from anyone who apparently had a problem personally – that says enough. Except one guy came to meet me at a concert with his tail between his legs and apologizing. Others left the scene completely. I spent my time at uni, concerts and at work, in rehearsal rooms and at the post office, heh. There will always be agitators who invent some gossip, and others would add more fantasy to it, and more, etc. Kids will be kids, even when they are 50+, have no money and still spend 14 hours per day on all social media blaming others for their own failed and fucked up life. I have nothing to prove but if people see me as threatening competition then I must be doing something good. I choose to ignore and be successful. I play in around a dozen active bands, do shows all over the world and get paid enough to live a reclusive life, at peace with myself doing what I absolutely love for 15 hours day. This is my idea of happiness.
Now if we pull this into the present. You have released stuff by Cirith Gorgor, Kjeld, Countess, Wrok, Sternklang and Orewoet over the past few years… You probably won’t deal with this question on a daily basis, but how do you see your position in the Dutch Black Metal scene now and how would you characterise the development of the Black Metal scene in our own country in recent years?
My position in the scene, that is a tough one. I hope I can be a consistent source of good music at affordable prices to some people, but that’s it. I don’t picture myself in some kind of position, I just want to make music.
As for development of the scene, I’m not the right person to ask probably. Stuff changes all around and new things happen everywhere, but I don’t keep track of that. I don’t jump on the newest hypes unless it’s something that personally interests me. In fact, what I noticed is a kind of anti-development where lots of people, basically the scene from 20-25 years ago, are still mostly interested in the bands from back then. People develop new hobbies, get families, etc, but about music they only still care about the bands they grew up with. Like those people, in some way I bonded to those times and bands in my youth, it still fascinates me. And lots of new bands just don’t interest me. I don’t even mean it in a way of presenting myself as being better than band X or Y or whatever band is popular right now. I’m not better, I just don’t care.
As for scene, what I noticed is the support for the Veneration festival in Rotterdam. We have done ten editions of the fest in itself, plus a lot of single show we hosted. It has really grown out to become its own brand, with more visitors every year but still maintaining a total underground lineup every year. It too attracts young new people as well as the same old familiar faces from decades ago. That is a huge honour.
Besides being a label owner, you are also a musician and have built up a wonderful musical resume, not only with some of your own bands such as Cultus, Sagenland and Uuntar, but you have also joined a number of bands you have kept good relations with in recent years, including Heimdalls Wacht and Pest and you are also part of the live band of Ancient and Blackdeath. Besides you used to be part of bands like Lugubre and Countess. Although I wanted to focus this interview mainly on the label, I’m curious to know how one influences the other. It seems impossible to see one completely separate from the other, right?
The label was founded to be the distribution-backbone of Cultus so in my opinion they are not only impossible to seperate them – the label is very much created to promote my bands. And the other way around, my music is spread through my network of customers and distributors. I still consider myself a musician first and all the stuff I record this way has a solid distribution and promotion platform behind it. I could release my music through other labels but I prefer to keep it under my own control and completely independent.
Now that you’ve been releasing music for almost a quarter of a century, as mentioned, have there been any specific releases during those years that you still look back on with particular pride? And turning it around, have you also released things you wouldn’t do anymore today?
I get most satisfaction from a band that shows respect back to me, from a customer that is honest, and simply from being able to release things as I have pictured them. In some cases for many years. Some examples, the Svarthymn MCD I had in my personal collection on tape and played it many many times. Never liked the Armagedda side but I would rewind the tape again and again for the Svarthymn side. Years later we got back in touch and we worked out the CD version for it. To have this little kind of “circle” of contacts is just great. I am actually still in touch with the bands that I got to know and worked with over 20 years ago. People and bands like The Chösen, Ancestors Blood, Angantyr, etc etc.
Some others that I’m very proud of and that came out as I pictured them for years are both Barathrum LPs and four CDs, All Countess LPs, especially ‘The Gospel…’ LP and ‘The book of the Heretic’ 2LP. I consider Forefather an exceptionally good band that I’m proud of to work with, but the same goes for Kjeld and Ildra.
As far as things I wouldn’t have released now, maybe a handful of titles that I simply don’t like musicwise anymore, but in general: no regrets.
Devoting yourself to (Black) Metal for some 25 years via running a label and playing in bands must definitely have changed you as a person too. Comparing yourself to how you were at the beginning of your musical career, what would you cite as the biggest difference? How do you think you matured in the music that has grabbed you from the beginning?
Interesting personal question. In some ways I have changed, like caring less and less about the rest of the world, about what the whole scene around me is doing. I changed because I gained a huge amount of knowledge and learned a lot. This makes it easier to make decisions because I know more what I want, and how to get it. The experience and professionalism is very welcome at times.
In other ways I have not changed at all: I’m still enthusiastic as a teenager when discovering new music – it’s still possible that new bands amaze me, or when I discover a good old band or album that I hadn’t heard of before. When writing new stuff – you get a huge adreneline rush. And when picking up records from the pressing plant – seeing the sleeves and holding them in your hand for the first time, still magic. And every order that pops up in the emailbox is still appreciated as much as first ones in the 90s. To me it’s still one of the biggest compliments there are, people buying my music with the money they worked for. First and foremost I consider myself a musician, then a music fan, and business man comes last. So I produce what I like to make and what I would buy as a fan. That hasn’t changed.
I touched on it briefly, in the years since you started Heidens Hart, the internet has played an increasingly important role. It strikes me that you, like New Era Productions for instance, do very little with Social Media, something I personally can appreciate – this way, something of an authentic “old school” feeling still lingers, for whatever that’s worth. Is this a conscious choice? In any case, it doesn’t really seem to be a problem as you both keep releasing great content.
Yeah I didn’t grew up with social media and with a phone glued to my hand, so it’s not a natural thing to do. I notice that people do actively follow my stuff so it’s good way to publish short and to-the-point news, keep people updated. But I don’t use any social media as my personal blog, like some labels do. I can’t imagine people would care. And it’s just not a natural thing to do for me. I myself have about a dozen active bands at the moment so I’m spending a lot of time in the studio, rehearsal rooms, shows or travelling. There’s no way I can keep up to date with all the new stuff and it probably doesn’t interest me anyway. I prefer to catch up with people in private or at shows.
Also I hate advertising and never wanted to present the label as the best label, the cheapest, the fastest, the biggest, whatever. I basically don’t advertise (except paper flyers) which is another reason why I’m not present on a dozen social media websites 24/7. I don’t want to present the label as some huge company that is the new Nuclear Blast or whatever, and also I don’t have any goals to when it comes to stuff like “by 2025 I need to have 300 releases and do 500k” or something. I don’t need a 20 meter merch-tent at Wacken and also I don’t want to be the next big thing in whatever. It’s perfectly ok if I release or sell stuff you don’t like.
Besides being less visible on Social Media, perhaps the most striking thing is that, especially compared to many other labels, with Heidens Hart you do manage to keep your prices pretty low. The absurdity of records above €40, a development I watch with bafflement and disbelief, does not yet seem to have fully penetrated the deepest capillaries of the underground. How do you personally view these developments?
Totally agree with you. When I recently had to raise the prices of tapes from 3,50 euro (7 guilders – the price of tapes before 2001) to 5 euro it felt a bit like betrayal, like “can I really do this?”. Even though other labels were already asking 8-10 euro for a tape for years, and all the while for over 20 years I kept my prices at the same level as when we still had the guilder. I don’t have to maximize the profit by pushing the retail price. Same with the vinyl prices, I’m just as shocked as you. Maybe even more, because as a producer of vinyl records I know that the prices of manufacturing vinyl has not increased by the amounts we see in retail nowadays – by far! In fact, as of 2024, lots of pressing plants have lowered their prices to the levels from before the corona peak times. So it’s very opportunistic in my opinion. I try to keep my vinyl priced at 15-18 euro still which is expensive enough. You are buying an object that will be used and will have no value in a couple of years. Paying 25 euro or more for a simple vinyl record is a rip off in my opinion. Once again, I’m in a lucky enough position to have very little overhead costs and I have an extremely minimalistic way of life. I don’t have to charge those prices, I don’t go from discount sale to sale to cover montly costs, I don’t do pre-orders to finance the actual release (this is a big scam and I urge people to watch out for this – we all know what labels take pre-orders and then leave you waiting for 18 months or more. Do not buy there, you will lose your money), I don’t have to produce or sell bootlegs or other gimmicks. You’d be surprised how many labels quickly throw overboard their principles and ideology if they can save some money. Can you imagine there are people out there running a self-proclaimed “record label” who need to do all those of those things and still are up to their chin in debts? For sure I’m not the biggest business guy out there but I was brought up with common sense, and you should never spend money you don’t have.
Arjan, I don’t want to keep you off your busy schedule, but of course I would like to thank you very much for your time and valuable insight into the camp of Heidens Hart. I am sure I will have forgotten something else, which is why I am happy to leave the last words to you…
My apologies for this eternal delay. Now it’s back to guitars and packing bags for the next one.
